Support The Abuse!
Perhaps you've read what an American FBI agent has written about how detainees were treated at Guantanamo:
On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. . . . On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.
Our good friends over at CC sarcastically argue that if you don't support that kind of abuse, if you say that you could read that and think it was something that could have been done by Nazis, if you raise your voice against it, you're not patriotic. This of course also means that the FBI agent who blew the whistle on this crap is not a patriot, but those who directed this abuse are. Sirs, I respectfully disagree.
... And just when we thought that the right wing "supporting the troops means supporting anything and everything they might do" idiocy had finally been silenced.
posted by Abe at 6/16/2005 09:36:00 AM
11 Comments:
Funny, a comment doesn't go by when TOD isn't finding a way to bootstrap in a dig on Kos. Just an observation. Btw, you can observe a lot by watching.
I understand it's hard to be a Republican in Ohio right now, but I'm afraid it has affected our two favorite GOP Buckeyes' sense of humanity.
T'od, when you're left comparing the actions of OUR TROOPS to the actions of fricking terrorists, you're left treading lonely water in the deep end of the pool of rationalizing. It's telling that you're only response to abuse by our troops is to repeat the mantra "Kos said..." even after he retracted and apologized and was roundly criticized. Including by us. Get over it, bro.
ARM, this is in Guantanamo, not Iraq. In Iraq, detainees have been sodomized with foreign objects and beaten to death by American troops. Compared to Iraq, being chained to the floor in Cuba is a vacation.
I shudder at your vision of America. I think we're better than this. I wish you two men would join me.
Extreme heat, extreme cold, do either one of these violate the Geneva Convention? And, Lefty, let's not forget that he pulled out his own hair.
--Klug
What are your "obvious conclusions?"
I'm really confused by Republican reactions to this. I AM outraged by the "treatment of Americans by the plane-crashing & head-chopping jihadists," but the whole basis of my outrage is not simply that I'm sad that innocent people died (and I am), but that it threatens the very core of who we are and what America stands for. I read such intelligent comentaries by all of you - including ARM and TOD with whom I usually diagree (and I have to say, knowing most of you, I'm quite shocked by the level of intelligence sometimes - are these the same guys who I once saw attempting to drink beer through their ears?). But then I read that ARM has said something like "by the way, I think it's pretty hot in Irag right now"? That justifies us compromising our principles of humanity? Do we operate under the "eye for an eye" philosophy? ARM and TOD's comments sound like a Toby Keith song. I really do expect more out you. I don't know enough about the situation at Guantanamo to make a well-reasoned argument about what should be done, but I am concerned and if these reports are true, I think we have a big problem. How can we expect the rest of the world to not view our message of democracy, equal rights and freedom as hypocritical? If you have an intelligent argument to make, please make it. "They did it first" doesn't qualify.
On another note, I would agree that the description sounds much like the Lemur Lair (except for the nothing to drink part).
Oh for Christ's sake, T'od. Cut out the "trashing the US" bullcrap. "You hate America" was your party's OLD talking point, until it was roundly ridiculed. I expect more intelligent debate from you. Meet my expectations.
Superstar: I understand your point. Comparing anything to the Nazis, even real abuse, typically stinks of hyperbole. For example, Rick Santorum recently compared the entire Democratic Party to Nazis. Ridiculous. Where was the CC outrage then? In any event, I think your comment here has merit: that Durbin's sentiment has value, but he should have chosen his words more carefully. I think your original post, questioning his patriotism, was unreasonable.
Now, a question: if Durbin had desribed how detainees have been beaten to death by soldiers, then said that was something the Nazis might have done, would you still question his patriotism? Would he be "trashing the US?"
TOD, let me get this straight: so you condone this sort of treatment, and the treatment at Abu Ghraib? The beatings, the killings, the rapes, all of it. From your position, you simply slap a heavy rubber stamp on it all. No questions asked, "sir, yes, sir."
I'm not speaking for my 2GL brethren, but I tend to want the U.S. to set an example throughout the world, especially when it comes to difficult, emotionally charged issues such as torture. The moral highgrown is not an easy thing to achieve, my friend, but when you do achieve it, it's amazing how powerful it is.
Further, like it or not, stories of the sort that Durbin speaks of and abu ghraib put our own soldiers at risk. For a country who has its soldiers spread to the four corners of the world, how can we expect our enemies to abide by international law on torture, a law we helped draft, when we ourselves throw it out when it's not convenient?
So when you say that 2GL's top priority is trashing the U.S., I recommend you take a close look at the track record of this administration. They're doing a much better job at junking this country's image in 4plus years, than these 3 dudes with keyboards will ever will.
You guys are fun!
johnny piano
As the reaction to Durbin has boiled up among the bilious, we get a bit of Rush Limbaugh's bile: "This is the kind of thing that ought to force him to resign in disgrace."
Wait -- wasn't it Rush who popularized the term "feminazi"? Is this any way to speak of our sisters, mothers, aunts, daughters, cousins, and Klug? Since Rush has already had his lion's share of disgrace, maybe he should just take a flying leap off the Triborough Bridge. Johnny Piano
"No soup for you!"
-Soup Nazi
Soon as we could see clearly
Through our big black eye
Man, we lit up your world
Like the 4th of July
...
And you'll be sorry that you messed with The U.S. of A.
'Cause we'll put a boot in your ass
It's the American way
I'm tough and stupid.
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