Marriage: one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.
As we've discussed before on 2GL, we have yet to hear a single reasoned argument against gay marriage. All anti-gay arguments are rooted in a sort of personal religious belief in the divine order of things.
As Colbert King so eloquently details, the right wing tried to put the same lipstick on the pig of anti-interracial marriage laws less than fifty years ago. As a white man with a longtime girlfriend who is black, it's hard to explain the disgust with which I read this:
An American judge wrote that less than fifty years ago. Shameful.Almighty God created the races, white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.
I can only image how gay couples must feel when they hear this very same bullcrap espoused as a cornerstone of the platform of the party controlling Washington in 2005. How must they feel when the President of the United States himself is peddling this tripe?
I only hope that in fifty years, gay folks will read the words of todays' Republicans and see nothing more than the last gasps of a dying ignorance.
posted by Abe at 2/12/2005 07:21:00 PM
17 Comments:
Why do you ignore the widespread support across party lines for such initiatives as The Defense of Marriage Act, signed by, ahem, one President William Jefferson Clinton?
You can't just ignore inconvenient facts.
Anonymous, nice try. I tend to agree with Abe that the Democratic party generally believes gay folks should have equality in every respect. But this isn't a party issue, its a moral issue bud. I just find it ironic that the self-righteous party who screams to the public how superior their family values are compared to the rest is the group that shows the most hate. Right, thats all it is, is hate for a group of people. Just like the KKK hated blacks or white males hated the feminist movement around the 1920s. Thats all you are, right? A person who hates a certain group of people because they are different from you. When they demand equal rights, you simply think you are superior to that group, right? What are you afraid of anonymous? You afraid that you institution of marriage will erode? Take a look around, it can't much worse than what it is now........get a clue......bigot!!
P.S. And yes, I just name called, I am trying to help you out, you don't want to wake up in 30yrs and figure out how wrong you are.....do you????
I personally have nothing against gay and lesbian unions. I just don't think they should get the use of the term "marriage". I don't care what they do in their bedroom, whether they can inherit each others things, file taxes jointly, share insurance coverage or be considered family for hospital visitation. Just leave the traditional term of "marriage" alone. Your characterization of Republicans as all being hateful is a hasty generalization. Of course I'm used to liberals and their elitist know-it-all attitude by now. As I have stated here before- there are crazy kooks in both parties. Do you wish to be defined by the kooks in your party? I doubt it.
The question remains, 3gl. Is President Clinton a bigot for signing the Defense of Marriage Act, or did he simply cave to the pressure, making him a coward.
And how on earth is one supposed to tell the difference? Can you see into his heart, 3gl?
Heterosexuals can enjoy the institution of marriage, but gays can not, right Rock? So you don't want them to be equal to you. I think you have already answered that, but I will give you once last chance to remove yourself from the world of bigotry.
No, but I can see into yours, Happy Valentine's Day, love.
If I am a bigot for not wanting gays and lesbians to sully the term "marriage" by using it to describe their unions then so be it. I have no problem with them having all the same legal rights, just not the term. Many Democrats on your side of the aisle share my position. Next someone else will want to "marry" their dog or cat. Oh, wait- that's already happening. Where do you want to draw the line 3GL? Is there no form of behavior that can be considered deviant or wrong these days? My morals are wrong and I should not have any right to be opposed to behaviors I find to be reprehensible or unnatural? I might be required to tolerate some things, but I don't have to like it and you can call me whatever name you want in return. How about we get some neonazis to rename themselves the gay liberals. We can call anything whatever we want, right? You libs shouldn't mind anyway since you all run from the liberal moniker and call yourselves "Progressives" these days. You can call a stone a "rose", but it's still a stone. Re-defining these gay couples as "married" isn't going to normalize them and make them more respectable in the eyes of the majority. I'm willing to give them the legal rights. What more do they gain by the name?
Their dignity, to answer your question. So you have to agree that all homosexuals choose to be so, right? IF IT'S BIOLOGICALLY NATURAL TO BE A HOMOSEXUAL THEN YOU ARE A BIGOT AND YOU POSITION IS FLAWED, WILL YOU AGREE WITH ME ON THAT? Nice try on the cats and dogs, are you calling homosexuals animals? You can't defend your position and you know it, you are afraid, thats it. Please answer my question IN ALL CAPS if you respond.
As a 50-something observer of the "current state of affairs," I undergo a daily digest of disgust at the rancorous debate on gay marriage. It's all so much pissin' in the wind.
Here, I will respond to Rocky. His question was this: "My morals are wrong and I should not have any right to be opposed to behaviors I find to be reprehensible or unnatural?" Your morals are your morals, right or wrong, and you're entitled to them. The problem here whirls around confusing morals with the law. Our system of law is designed (some say divinely inspired) to promote and protect the rights of the individual -- rights of expression, association, and religion, among others.
That system has stood fast to protect those rights, even when the expression, association, or religious belief has espoused what many of us would consider immoral behavior. Why? Because we must, if we are going to have the guts to look into our Constitutional mirror.
Another of Rocky's questions is spot on: "[Was] President Clinton a bigot for signing the Defense of Marriage Act, or did he simply cave to the pressure, making him a coward?" Clinton and many other Democrats (along with their Republican brethren) are, in fact, cowards on this issue. They stick their fingers in the wind, their heads in their asses, and go along with the "bigotry du jour" to keep their jobs. It's a damn shame.
So, I wholeheartedly support what Abe wrote at the onset of this string. My name is John Moore. I am his father, and I am proud of his acuity and eloquence. Normally, I just sign off ... Johnny Piano
I am thinking a good webblog drama for TV is in the making. Title and Theme: Who is this Johny Piano. Good points Mr. Moore, perhaps we need stronger leaders who stand for principle in Washington and not self interest and protection?
First of all, I did not author the post about Bill Clinton and the defense of marriage act. I don't disagree with that post, but I don't make anonymous posts. Secondly, are you desirous of gays and lesbians getting equal legal rights or are you just after the term marriage? I see no loss of dignity for those groups if they receive the same legal protections that heterosexuals get. They are going to be all upset and feel devalued if they can't call themselves a "married" couple? Many of us hetero couples will feel that the term "marriage" is devalued if gays get to use it, but our concerns don't matter I guess. We aren't a darling of the left like gays are so our concerns must take a back seat to the gay population? We automatically are gay haters just because we want to keep the traditional definition of marriage? I don't hate gays nor do I wish harm upon them. I'm sure you'll still call me a bigot anyway. You fool yourself if you think I will be deeply hurt by your name calling.
I have no doubt that gays are BORN THAT WAY. Does that make it normal? Not in my opinion. Do I think it is morally wrong? Yes. Do I force my morals upon their lifestyle? No. Am I afraid of them or hate them? No. I'm not even against them adopting children. Does that shock you? I have no doubt they would be loving and caring parents who would beat an orphanage all to hell. I'm not a gay hater. I just don't want them to use the term "marriage". It won't matter in the long run because they are all going to use it anyway- legal or not.
And no- I'm not calling gays animals. I was trying to make a point. There ARE people who wish to marry their pets. Haven't you heard that news? Should we normalize their sexual choice too? Maybe they were born wanting to make it with a German Shepherd. That would make it okay, right? How about your friends at NAMBLA? Those guys were apparently born thinking it's good to make it with ten year old boys. Since they've all felt that way their whole lives it must be natural and good.
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Rocky, you're nuts. You support seperate but equal institutions for gays? Why do you even care? Are you afraid if gay folks get to use the term marriage, your marriage or future marriage will not be as fruitful? What are you afraid of buddy, why do you care so much that you are willing to discriminate against an entire group. You sit here and state that you don't hate gays, you don't mind gay adoptions, etc. I ask why? If being gay is wrong when it comes to the sanctity of marriage then why is it not wrong when you allow gays to raise young defenseless children? Don't you see your bigotry and selfishness? Gays can do what they want and can associate with whom they want so long as it does not effect Rocky or Rocky's institutions. That's why you care about them utilizing marriage, but do not mind them using adoption. The kid is not your kid, what do you care. You only care when it effects you. Oh, you are such a Republican, thanks for coming out and telling us what your party really is about. A bunch of selfish bigots. Say it with me, Rock, I can change, I can change, I can change, again, I can change, I can change, keep on saying it.
1:32 PM
That's about the reaction I expected from you. What do gays gain by adopting the marriage moniker to their relationship? They desire to be considered normal and accepted as good by society. Getting the same legal rights isn't enough. We have to have their lifestyle crammed down our throat and if we don't smile and say its a wonderful thing, then we are bigots and deserve to be publicly flogged ourselves. We are castigated as horrible people for not being supportive of a lifestyle we consider to be sinful. I can consider their gay sex to be sinful without hating the sinner. I'm not going over to their house and demanding they stop their sinful ways. I am tolerant of them and that's as far as I feel I need to go. I don't think they are evil people (thus why they are better than an orphanage) that need to be converted or condemned. The judgement of their lifestyle will come from God, not me. I'm willing to let them live as they want, but I'm not going to sanction their relationship legally and I'm never gong to consider it normal or laudable.
Have you ever heard of the concept of incrementalism? First gay marriage, then we go to adults marrying children, then sex with animals is okay, then what's next? Eventually nothing is considered wrong. How dare I judge someone who wants to marry their Pit Bull as wrong. Bigot! When do you do your piece on how biggoted people are who are against NAMBLA? I'm sure there are people supportive of that already. Are you one of them? Are you a bigot if you don't support them? Under your terms, you are. How dare you judge morally those grown men who wish to love ten year old boys! Or do you support them too? That's just as much a value judgement.
Molesting young boys is agreed to not be natural. Homosexuality is, as you stated, natural. So your argument is again flawed, you are not comparing apples to apples. For a lesser audience, you could get away with those stupid arguments about animals and child molestors and slippery slopes. Problem is, you are not Sean Hannity, and we are not FoxNews viewers. I can see through the mountain of flaws in your position. Oh, anybody who had premarital sex is as sinful as gay folks having sex, right? I am curious, are the two sins punished equally? Probably not in your world........All my love Rock, don't have a nervous breakdown, just pray your kids are straight.....
Molesting young boys is EVIL. How do you know that the Catholic priests or others who molest little boys aren't BORN with a pre-disposition to do so? I think they are born that way. Is being born with a pre-disposition to do a certain act an excuse to normalize it? You seem to think you know everything, so set me straight. Having a natural drive to do something abnormal doesn't make it okay in my view. If it's genetic, how do these genes get passed on through couplings that produce no offspring? They may be born that way, but that doesn't make it normal.
And by the way- In the church I go to, premarital sex is a sin too. So is extramarital sex. I've been told that God frowns on ALL sins. And no, not all heterosexual marriages are perfect either. Mine is very good- thank you. Worried about my kids? My daughter is married with two kids and my son already prefers girls. I'd love them either way anyway. You see, I don't hate gays. I just don't want to give up the marriage title to them.
This is my response to both rocky and mr Im afraid to say my name... How shallow and close minded are you. Honestly, what does it matter if two men or woman get married its non of your business... Marriage celebrates love, its not even a political issue so the fact that its thrown around like that is ridiculous... Imagine that your kids are gay, and how much they will hate you for hating them. You wouldnt even go to there wedding because its same-sex. Im sorry but thats sad. Then when your kid is gone you will regret wasting time on something so small that had no effect on you what so ever...
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