How Would Bush have Behaved During the 60's Civil Rights Movement?
Kerry was clearly the victor in the debate last night. Although President Bush was more energetic than the first podium style debate, he still lacked substance and a detailed understanding of the complexities of our world. One question that I believe has gone unnoticed as far as the pundits are concerned was when Schieffer asked
Do you believe homosexuality is a choice?
I frequently debate my conservative friends about equality and the right to marry for gay and lesbian Americans. Texan Republicans usually tailor their answer around God and Christianity. The usual, "Marriage is an institution created by God and it is between a woman and a man" is typically evoked. This is where I ask the question that Schieffer asked. You will notice that our Commander in Chief who has "strong convictions" and "knows what he believes" suddenly is not sure, take a look at the transcript:
Question 6: Do you believe homosexuality is a
choice?SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's get back to economic issues.
But let's shift to some other questions here.
Both of you are opposed to
gay
marriage. But to understand how you have come to that conclusion, I want
to ask
you a more basic question.
Do you believe homosexuality is a
choice?
BUSH: You know, Bob, I don't know. I just don't
know. I do know that we have a choice to make in America and that
is to
treat people with tolerance and respect and dignity. It's important
that we do
that.
And I also know in a free society people, consenting
adults can live
the way they want to live. And that's to be honored.
But
as we respect someone's rights, and as we profess tolerance, we shouldn't change
-- or have to change -- our basic views on the sanctity of marriage.
I
believe in the sanctity of marriage. I think it's very important that we protect
marriage as an
institution, between a man and a woman. I proposed a
constitutional
amendment. The reason I did so was because I was worried that
activist judges
are actually defining the definition of marriage, and the
surest way to protect
marriage between a man and woman is to amend the
Constitution..........
SCHIEFFER: Sen. Kerry?
KERRY: We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you
were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you
that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as.
I
think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice. I've met people who
struggled with this for years, people who were in a marriage because they
were
living a sort of convention, and they struggled with it.
And I've
met wives who are supportive of their husbands or vice versa when they finally
sort of
broke out and allowed themselves to live who they were, who they
felt
God had made them. I think we have to respect that.
The president
and I share the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe
that. I believe marriage is between a man and a woman.
But I also believe
that because we are the United States of America, we're a country with a great,
unbelievable Constitution, with rights that we afford people, that you can't
discriminate in the workplace. You can't discriminate in the rights that you
afford people. You can't disallow someone the right to visit their partner
in
a hospital. You have to allow people to transfer property, which is why
I'm for
partnership rights and so forth.
Mr. President, you are either discriminating against a class of people or you are not. You either allow this group of people to have the same economic advantages as heterosexuals or you don't. You can't have it both ways and you can not say "you don't know". I would accept this answer, but for the fact that YOU pushed a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. By doing this, you have taken a stance on the issue. Is this an issue for presidential politics? Of course not. But you have brought this decisive issue to the forefront and now you have an obligation to know. Senatory Kerry, you also have an obligation to support gay marriage as a champion for the causes of Democratic ideals. If homosexuality is not a choice, then we, as God following people, have a moral obligation to afford them all the same rights as other God created human beings.
posted by Bulldoza at 10/14/2004 11:21:00 AM
10 Comments:
Let me preface my comments with this: I am sickened by the attempts of George W. Bush and the Christian Right to pass a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. That said, I actually think G.W. had a fair and honest answer to that question. Why isn't it OK for him to admit that he doesn't know if homosexuality is a choice? He's not a homosexual and he hasn't had to consider it for himself. I don't agree with his stance on gay marriage, but I think if the answer he gave was a true reflection of his actions and policy toward homosexuals, it would be very fair, honest and even "compassionate." What I am angered and disturbed by is Senator Kerry's refusal to take a stand on the issue because of fear of alienating consituents. I also think it is incredibly low that he and Senator Edwards have used the fact Dick Cheney's daughter is lesbian to their advantage.
"he still lacked substance and a detailed understanding of the complexities of our world"
Huh? Wha?
Detailed complexities of our world? You mean Kerry's understanding of our world where he wants to go back to the way we were before 9/11? A time when we were at war and didn't even know it? A time when the USS Cole was bombed, the military base in Saudi, the first attempt on the WTC?
You mean Kerry's understanding of the world where terrorism will someday just be a "nuisance"? (as opposed to actually defeating terrorism).
Kerry is a pole whore. He will do and say anything depending on which way the political winds are blowing.
4 more years.
Not quite sure what a "pole whore" is. I realize that John Kerry is tall and slender and has been married more than twice, but geeze, pretty harsh, wouldn't you say.
I love the outrage from the right about Kerry mentioning Mary Cheney. She's gay. The question was about gays, and Kerry mentioned a public figure who is gay. The nerve!
If you think that's some sort of low blow, then perhaps you attach a stigma to the idea of being gay. The most embarassing thing I've seen in this political cycle is Lynn Cheney in front of a microphone acting as if she was personally insulted that someone mentioned the fact that her daughter is gay. It's not an insult, Mrs. Cheney. Calm down. It's a simple fact. Love Mary for who she is.
As far as the gay marriage issue, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Kerry's is the better of two poor positions. Bush wants to change the effing constitution to discriminate against gays. How does that get past anyone? He can say whatever he wants, but that's what he's trying to do. It's absurd and depressing that reasonable people turn their heads from this.
But don't listen to me. Ask a real live gay person. Sullivan's take today is dead on: www.andrewsullivan.com
What's more crass invoking a public figure who is gay, and happens to be the VP's daughter, or pushing a hate amendment that alienates a minority and has further divided this country?
I think the Kerry-Edwards camp's main point when using Mary Cheney, Ronald Reagan, Christopher Reeve, Michael J. Fox, Rosie O'Donnell, etc., is that the current president's policies and proposals have an adverse effect, sometimes life-threatening effect, on REAL LIVE people. And in the case of gay marriage especially, Bush will do ANYTHING to please his conservative base, even despicably target a peoples that includes the Vice President's daughter and runs contrary to even the wishes of his right hand man.
Ladies and gentlemen, your "current" president--the divider NOT the uniter.
Listen, Mary Cheney is Bush-Cheney '04's Director of Vice Presidential Operations. Before joining the campaign, she worked for Coors, doing... you guessed it: gay and lesbian outreach work. My guess? Mary Cheney is proud of her sexuality. Too bad her family isn't.
And yeah, I think that after Vice President Cheney uses his daughter's sexuality to try to connect with the gay community and its supporters, and after Mary Cheney puts her sexuality in the public light, it's fair for John Kerry to mention her as an example of a gay person who is just being who she is, and saying he respects that.
This is a ridiculous non-issue. I hope the right keeps hammering on it. It makes them look desperate and oddly uncomfortable with homosexuality.
Lotsa reaction, as might be expected. I agree with Abe that mentioning Mary Cheney was not a "low blow." I think Kerry showed respect for Mary Cheney. Nonetheless, I cringed a bit when he said it. I knew that a lot of people would jump all over it. So, Kerry's comment was not mean nor calculating nor in-your-face-Curious-George-who-can't-answer-a question. But it was a bit of a gaffe, as he positioned himself for others to pounce. Not as big a boner as Bush saying, "I never said I didn't care about bin Laden," but who's jumping on that? Johnny Piano
No one is suggesting that Mary Cheney should be ashamed of being gay. But I personally am saying that Kerry should be ashamed of using that fact for his political advantage. I also think the way the Republicans have used hatred toward gays to their politcal advantage is disgusting. I just keep holding out hope that John Kerry will take a stance on something - and he hasn't. I don't like Bush's policy decisions regarding homosexuals, but at least he takes some stand - it is wrong and that's why I won't vote for him. However, now I'm left to vote for someone who doesn't have the courage to take a stand - who is pandering to those whose vote he might lose if he did. I don't care whether my president thinks being gay is a choice. I care about whether he or she will act in a way consistent with what George Bush SAYS he believes - that all people deserve to be treated with respect and dignity and tolerance. I have given up hope that George Bush is going to be the person to do that and I am afraid that I will soon have to give up the hope that Kerry will do that either.
Leaving it to the states is a stand, Steph. The GOP wants him to say that gay marriage is okay b/c that's tantamount to political suicide. Most Americans don't want gays to marry, but that doesn't mean they want constitutional amendment memorializing that fact.
Kerry-Edwards take a safe approach and, I believe, the right approach: let the states decide. Other more conservative states don't have to recognize that marriage, despite the full faith and credit clause. Hawaii for years allowed gay marriages and other states were not obligated to recognize. Nevada's shot-gun marriages, too, were not recognized in many states.
For a conservative president who supposedly believes in small-government and state's rights, Bush has been everything but.
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